Need Understanding

..."ethically Chinese"

Haha! Talk about a Freudian slip! ;)

"but I can see the goods that Communism has done to China and its people."

Err...and once again what exactly about mainland China is Communist?

China is developing in spite of the CCP, not because of it.

hehe, ethically Chinese = look like Chinese, didn't want to be confused for having receding blond hair with blue eyes

By "goods that Communism has done to China and its people", I did not mean the development of China - I meant the control it had over China as a whole. China has changed its policies mainly for the good of its people too, and not for the benefit of other countries - isn't that what communism is all about? I think all of the existing laws or developing laws are still around the original principles.

If China has developed 60 years earlier as a free market or democracy, China and probably the world would probably be in a huge meltdown by now. Imagine every single person in China possessing only half of what an average American have today. Where in the world would there be enough resources to make that happen? Would your country have developed the same? Competition for resources would have eaten down China and the world. We could imagine good things that come out of it, but I think that communism in China did the world well - with many sacrifices to the Chinese people.

i would only change to this: "goods that Communism has done to China and MOST of its people"

@canrun:
Do you get the feeling that we are being baited here?

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"I can't get no respect.............. no respect at all!"

I have thought about this many times and agree with you on this point. :)
JJ

And regarding the toilet issue... well yes, China is a developing country and it's not so easy to live here. But I don't think this is specific to China.
I'll have to take the Chinese side here as we French are always slagged off for peeing in the streets: it's less true nowadays but was a common practice a few years back: if even the French can change...
JJ :)

when author ken kesey came to australia he commented that the the sight of people pissing in the street was a sign of a healthy,well adjusted nation. in agreeing with his and other comments , i add that decency and hygeine are important side considerations, and if this child was 'pissed' in k.f.c. it is a bloody disgrace. are we talking pissing inside ,on the floor? surely not. to begrudgingly quote the nauseating dr. phil ,'thats a deal-breaker ya'll'. spitting in the elevator? disgusting. i just dont get it, on cultural, educational , any grounds , its bloody wrong to [as borat says] 'make toilet' inside, in public with nearby facilities. some of these kids are not babies either. one more quote ,[and one i live by] from boy george of all people- ' if you gotta piss , piss with style.'

hey squatters, they say, are more hygenic...

I was once at a very nice hotel in Shanghai. Walked into my bathroom and noticed that the toilet SEAT had been "roughed" up at the 4 and 8 o'clock positions. It took me a while to figure that one out...

And today, that someone probably got themselves a new ToTo fully automatic toilet in their home. That'll warm wash and whatever else the touche.

Now that's what I call evolution!

"are we talking pissing inside ,on the floor?"

Absolutely, positively 100% on the floor. At the left hand edge of the counter, three steps away from the bathroom.

Even my normally vociferous Chinese wife was left speechless.

The cultural differences between "inland" China and the more "western" cities such as Zhuhai to be quite large. My work involves training people who have migrated from the country to the city, and their education is, well interesting. They simply do not have the broad range of knowledge that the average westerner has - and some habits and beliefs defy logic of any type.

My personal opinion was that "country" China is very much a 3rd world place. Zhuhai is a modern city mixed with 3rd world cultural elements. It's what makes it such an interesting place.

I agree with JJ, the planet can not afford China to live the same lifestyle as the West, and the West need to recognise this. The West will (MUST) slowly decline (it's started) and the East will continue to rise, hopefully with both finding a middle ground somewhere between.

"I agree with JJ, the planet can not afford China to live the same lifestyle as the West, and the West need to recognise this."

Roy, you are S.P.O.T. on. After shelling out a small fortune for a sofa and bedding from this horrible place called "Rooms to Go"-- (which I SWEAR I had never heard of...thank God for cultural insulation)--I am now dearly missing the hard as a rock piece of concrete slab upon which I lay my weary head every night.

Well, most nights anyhow... ;)

I might be digressing from the main topic, but if China did develop 60 years earlier she would not have the population that she had today. Hence it would not require as much resources and cause the "melt down" you talked about. Unfortunately, population explosion is usually associated with high infant mortality rate and low life expectancy such that as improvements are being made in basic health and food sources, the population is left unchecked and grows exponentially.

So an earlier development at a time when the population is low can prevent a huge population as a large growth on a small base still results in a low-ish population. Just compare the populations explosion in Europe in pre 1940 days and the developing world today. The same percentage growth applied to Europe at that time results in a far less population than applied to countries such as Brazil, India and China today.

Put it this way, if China went down the same path as Taiwan and according to Wiki:

"Taiwan is suffering from a decline in birth rates with a population growth of just 0.30% and a fertility rate of 1.12 children (below the 2.1 births average needed to replace the existing population) for the year 2007."

It's hard to say what would have been China's population if that did happen, may be Taiwan's population today x 20 or 30. In any case, it would have been much less and China's dependency on world resources would dramatically reduce and she might be self sufficient in many of the resources.

However, given China's population is 1.3B china has to develop in a different way to the west to not consume as much resources.

@orrin...
LOl hook line and sinker mate!

@tailvrrey

Let the thoughts flow! mate.. that's the beautiful aspect of the forums section!

While your at listen to this...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WWWKl1QJed0

The fact is China does have 1.3 billion people, but at least they are doing something about it. I wonder where that will end up in one generations time.

It's a pity a few more overpopulated and underdeveloped countries don't follow suite.

History shows that it's technology (education) and teamwork that wins.

interesting indeed....
all it took was some understanding and interaction with these people [which i guess most foreigners are not exposed to - since foreigners are treated different way, so a lot of facts are omitted]

Tailvrrey, I think you miss the point a little... but whom am I to disagree, as you would have it, as foreigners we are incapable of thinking for ourselves.. ahh where would I be without the marvels of Chinese wisdom to guide me?.. oh hang on, maybe I should listen to Ms Chan, she's from China right?

"Sanitation is a cornerstone of public health," said Dr. Margaret Chan, Director-General of the World Health Organization.

http://youthink.worldbank.org/issues/health/sanitation.php

Most expats who live and work here are just as concerned for the well being of China and it's people then say most of those ignorant lazy wannabes (cough cough locals) who just don't care.. if you know what I mean?! I have lived in this country long enough to call it my home, how long would you say an expat would have to live here before he/she becomes a local..

Gurrang-gurrrang - I do not mean to take you personally, but it's THESE type of comments that really are unfair to the people in China and it's these types of comments that gives the unfair impressions of the Chinese people to other people

the point of the post wasn't about sanitation, never meant that sanitation wasn't important...i know the importance of it....everything is relative on the ranking of what's important to you in your life....wouldn't that make you not care about sanitation? i bet if i audited your life for a day, i can point out at least 50 things that you are doing that are unsanitary to yourself and others - even after learning about it, would you want to like like bubble boy? .......why NOT?

Chinese local "ignorant lazy wannabes" (MOST at least) are more concerned with what are they going to do to just make through the end of the month with some cash in their pocket so they can at least enjoy a bit of what they worked for, and not worry about what your education has taught you....(this example might have been exaggerated)...but if you grew up in China, you would have been that ignorant lazy wannabes....

public health/science [education] is like the belief when world was still flat - until somebody finds out world was round, the common public belief is the same thing - until they find out that xx ppm's of agent yy is bad for your health - just like teflon pans (exaggerated example again)

don't say you made China your home just because you live here and like it....if you really made China your home, you would be more understanding of the people you have to share your space with...

mission after reading this post: educate one person on why spitting on the ground is not good and let us know how that goes before you go on and this post trying to do more bashing of the locals because you simply just don't care about them - unless they're helpful to you

@trailvrrey

Toot the other horn mate, it plays jingle bells! What is unfair about the truth?

Yeah there are maybe 100 things a day I do that are not good for ME, perhaps when you have a free day(cough) we can meet and you can audit my habits(sic) so that I can LIVE LIKE A BUBBLE BOY!!!

Most of us are no different when it comes to money mate! We're all just trying to get through, isn't that part of the journey of life? Having no money and no education does not give you a justification for laziness. Laziness is what it is! Pure and simple.. We have to educate to elevate! And if that means helping out the the less fortunates by showing them where the toilet is, then so be it!

I am sorry, I was lost in translation.. I have no idea what you are trying to say in this example!! LOL

I can say that and I will.. and if by sharing space you mean turning a blind eye to the shitting and pissing, HELL NO! I will not. There is nothing cultural or hygienic in it at all. Even a poor man, unemployed, run down on his luck and simply trying to makes ends meet can be shown where a toilet is.

And unlike most Chinese who do not seem to care, I do. I can not sit by and watch as some person pollutes the space WE share! Can you? And even as I type this I know deep in my heart that you are not going to "feel" what I am trying to say, but rather....and so the saga continues..

Yep, the torch is alive and well in Gurrang's hands... ;)

hahaha....very typical defensive responses...this is getting fun....
to solve a problem, you need to understand what it is....not just blaming on people...there are reasons too on why people are lazy who would do what they do, do you not solve their lazy, you understand why they are lazy

your comment hurt my feelings...hahaha...back to the point...what was the point of your comment? Make fun of me? or educate me that there are things around me that are not healthy? what's your point?

my point was: you don't know EVERYTHING that's good for your health, even if you do, you do not follow all of the rules you know for best sanitation

what is the truth you are trying to say? Chinese people spit, piss and shit on the streets? That it? IT IS true...what's your point? I know they are funny experiences...i had my share of them already.....AND? what's your POINT?

Point was: Do ALL Chinese people spit, piss, shit on public spaces because they are lazy? YOU would be considered lazy if you would do that because you were educated not to do that....in the other hand, NOT ALL Chinese people were educated that way....babies shit whenever they want until they are educated not to - same deal - EDUCATION

OH YEAH! SO FUNNY cuz you were lost in translation LOL here too!
point was: sanitation/health standards are just decisions/results/conclusions made by human beings based on scientific observations/tests/experiments, not all conclusions are perfect, they are changed/updated to what is better for the health of human beings..it's just a common agreement of what is good....common is a relative term....
plus, these sanitary standards are LEARNED, NOT everyone is aware of ALL health standards...and you learn it through EDUCATION

yes, you are almost getting to the point - what it takes is to teaching the poor, unemployed man to learn to use the toilet? WERE ALL CHINESE taught that way? i don't think you would say it's OK for homeless to piss and shit under your building, but you would UNDERSTAND why he does that: he has more crap to worry about than shitting on the street you walk - and you would TEACH him not to because you know he's not educated enough not to do that, and you would educate him because you KNOW he isn't educated enough....i don't turn a blind eye to pissing, shitting and spitting, I understand why these things happen, and better than making it just a FUN topic in the forum so you make yourself feel better about yourself bashing locals, I EDUCATE them why it's not good for them to do that. Bashing and complaining what they're doing is wrong doesn't help a hell lot unless people reading this gets your point that the message you want to convey is help EDUCATE locals on sanitation, instead of making fun of locals is FUN, I feel powerful! - cuz i haven't seen ANY posts after some of the posts about trying to fix the problem

Trust me mate, I've been in the same position you were, I don't like the fact that they do it, but I understood their ignorance on this issue.

2 ways I have to deal with IGNORANCE, ignore or educate. These experiences are just a part of Chinese culture, culture can and will be changed.

If you are not trying to get personal on me, your response would have been different, you would have got the point. I am choosing to educate here.

firstly, you're not me mate! Secondly, I was not bashing.. had you read the article I wrote about the toilet issue you would have seen that.. whatever dude... you're right I'm wrong... PEACE BE WITH YOU!

constructive criticism seems to be lost in this thread... I hereby will refrain from entering into any discussion where our views are going to judged "china bashing" ....LOL

This thread is starting to sound like the Jack Cafferty flap going on NON-STOP here in the States! ;)

(I've ALREADY made a few enemies in the Chinese community here...only by pointing out the obvious!)

http://www.pekingduck.org/archives/004901.php

@canrun:
I think you may be back in China long before you anticipated.:P

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"I can't get no respect.............. no respect at all!"

Tailvvrey,

I completly agree with you, and I was thinking since a long time to post a reflexion on this topic, but my english is too poor. Like you I have been living in many countries, that's maybe why I learned to respect the customs of the people who welcomed me in their countries..
I think that the guys wo wrote such posts about China are not "real" expats people, they are just "crossing" over China. They just came here to work not to give and get...
So there is nothing to hold against them.
BTW your post is smart,nice and much of a human.

Dom

L'amitié ne s'use que si l'on ne s'en sert pas

@Gdomi, you are too modest, your English is excellent!!!

thanks a lot Mr Gurrang- gurrang but I most of all have an excellent dictionary

L'amitié ne s'use que si l'on ne s'en sert pas

GG, While I understand and agree with a lot of what you had to say regarding cultural and standard of living differences I can NOT agree with your idea that we should just forget about the "Common sense" thing.
When it comes to things like public health - bathroom stuff and especially crazy Taxi and other drivers because if we just look the other way as it seems you would like us to do, sooner or later we are going to die...
Crazy drivers should not be on the roads. You can't just ignore that. These people are going to kill someone and I don't want it to be me.

China can not have it both ways. They are on the fast track to becoming a world economic powerhouse. With that comes some responsibility. You have to educate your people and not ignore it with the excuse of saying "oh that is our culture"... You want the money from the rest of the world you have to learn to be respected by them at the same time.
Money comes into your country >> Educated citizens come out. This is the only civilized way of doing things.

Tsk tsk, Bobc!

You are most CERTAINLY going to "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people" with that comment! ;)

Looks like you and the CNN bureau chief are both being summoned to Beijing!

bobc you say :
"Money comes into your country >> Educated citizens come out. This is the only civilized way of doing things."
Are you really sure of this ?

L'amitié ne s'use que si l'on ne s'en sert pas

.....................

JJ, i see you closed a very similar thread to this one.After seeing the new naval base at Sanya maybe you should close this one too.
The original post is full of misinformation, many foreigners live here in the lap of luxury....clearly you have never been to a school provided sh****le, i mean apartment. And TW and the mainland are sooooooooo different???

@spencer:
What exactly do you mean by “in the lap of luxury”? Indeed, there are some of us here who earn a salary that is far above the average wage. On the other hand, however, the most of us go to work every day, hope that we can meet all of our bills, and try to live like everyone else here. All we ask is that our neighbors conduct themselves in a manner that is consistent with normal human decency, and behave like civilized human beings. Is that too much to ask?

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"I can't get no respect.............. no respect at all!"

............

Methinks (mehopes?) Spencer is being sarcastic...

Oh, yeah...Sanya ain't that far is it?

Hmm, did you read the original post.

"It might have been easier for me maybe it's because of my Taiwanese background being more related to China than most of you and that I do not live in the luxury of what most of foreigners or expats here live in. Regardless, I was fortunate enough to be able and willing to understand and witness what most of what I consider normal Chinese people has endured. From these, not everyone in China has had the luxury to live the way most of us here has had. For the majority of them will not even be close of witnessing the comfort we have."

My comment was spurred by this paragraph and indeed refers to the fact that many expats do not live here in luxury.

Orrin, you seem to have taken umbridge with a comment not even aimed at you, i dont like to keep using the quote system so perhaps you missed my reference to tail's comment. I was just pointing to some logical fallacies with tail's provocative post.

Ivywu whilst i understand morse code maybe you should just use English...---...

Canrun, need you even ask, i can quote every line of Blackadder, George Carlin, Bill Hicks....

@spencer:
I wasn't aware that you were quoting from the OP. Yes I did read the OP, and I agree that it is full of misinformation, and what I see as anti-western bias. I have largely and deliberately stayed ot of this one because some of my comments in similar threads have been interpreted by some as being racist, when in fact, they are merely unfiltered observations. You should read some of the PMs I received.

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"I can't get no respect.............. no respect at all!"

If you'd like, I'll post a point-by-point rebuttal to the OP. I already have it half written. I'm certain, however, that it will set a few people's hair on fire

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"I can't get no respect.............. no respect at all!"

luxury: something that is an indulgence rather than a necessity
comparing to 90% of the Chinese, my life is quite luxurious....i bet your life is too...not like it makes any difference to the point i was trying to make anyways...

"merely unfiltered observations" can cause misunderstanding....this is what causes all these mess that's going on around the world with China...if you use freedom of speech, you need to be responsible for the consequences it caused....

just like my original post's intention was merely to have more people to be more understanding of the Chinese and its culture because with that you will understand why they do what they do....as simple as that...... i can that not everyone is willing to try to do that...or just maybe wasn't communicated out right...if everyone would just take a half step back, everything would be much easier....

China is beautiful...love her then bash her, don't just bash her...

Orrin, i dont think the op deserves that much of your time and lets face it, it is hardly a fair fight.

Tail, your last sentence has a different meaning in England; i am not sure if you meant that one or the literal meaning :0

@spencer:
You're right. I don't like to engage in kicking someone while they are down.

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"I can't get no respect.............. no respect at all!"

.....MEU DEUS! GET A ROOM! e fica de quatro pro cara meu!

anyways, before the sheriff intervenes....this portion of the forum is about living in Zhuhai....so check out A-Z for nice hotels....i recommend double executives from holiday inn...i can get you rooms at my company's rate if you'd want orin

Tailvrrey, I am interested to read your opinion of the so called "cultural revolution" and what it did for China and how it has moulded the China of today. Was it good or bad.

Again, some people just can't handle reality.

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"I can't get no respect.............. no respect at all!"

roy: was it good or bad for whom? for me? for you? for China? for orrin? for my neighbor? or for the rest of the world?
it has been good for many and bad for many...if it was or is still bad for you, go and do something about it...instead of like many people in here, in China and the whole world who are making all these provocations to cause all these quite fruitless tensions out, they are only making problems worse, and even taking steps back from solving problems for the people who didn't think it was good

and yes, me can't handle the reality....i don't know the reality in china...YOU DO! HUAHUAUHAHUA

anyways...a-z only has one museum up? any other tips on museums in zhuhai area?

T, I asked for your personal opinion. As my understandings on this subject are from an outsider looking in, I am quite interested in how other people (and especially Chinese) think on this subject.

I didn't realise you regarded such a simple question as being provocation. It seems it is a prickly subject for you, I am sorry you don't want to discuss it.

You are not alone, it seems to be a subject most Chinese don't want to discuss.

ok, ok, I will try to get more museums listed. In fact, Zhuhai has a plan to create many many museums in the near future, so keep your eyes open :)
JJ

PS: I am quite busy at the moment, so don't forget all of you can be the sheriff as Tail says: if you don't like some posts or comments, just click on "Report this page" explaining why, who etc... ok?
Many thanks!

roy: some of the response wasn't directed to you....so i got that well deserved response back from you...apologize for the misunderstanding..i will reword the response to you to see if it makes more sense:

was it good or bad for whom? for me? for you? for China? for orrin? for my neighbor? or for the rest of the world?
it has been good for many and bad for many...if it was or is still bad for you, and you would have some time, you would do something about it...instead of like many people in here, in China and the whole world who are making all these provocations against each other to cause all these more fruitless tensions out, those who are only intending to cause more trouble are only making problems worse, and even taking steps back from solving problems for the people who didn't think it was good

there are so many things i would consider when answering this question (social, economic, environmental, future, resources....), but just roughly...i think the cultural revolution thingie overall wasn't very good for the whole world (not including China)...other than the whole world was able to get cheaper of everything out of it - for almost 2 decades now....
for me, it has been more good than bad...mostly personal.....
for most of the locals it's been mostly good because of the new opportunities and improving life standards....i know of many that it has been bad too, depending on how they reacted to it...
for outsiders: it would depend on how they're looking or dragged into the situation..i've known some good and some bad situation coming out of this too....

...one thing that i respect China and the Chinese a lot is how the old Chinese regime controlled well its people...many of the actions by the old regime we would label today as 'irrational' or unfair....and that's why i respect many of the living chinese today who had gone through through that experience....asking a 60+ year old gramma in China to accept many of the things we do today is not that easy...there are ways, but not easy....

An interesting response and without having lived through those days in China it's probably the best we can do in a short format like this. I do find it interesting that it's not often spoken about. It seems bad history is forgotten faster than good.

I had a similar situation once in the USA. I was in a town that saw a lot of US civil war action, and being interested in history as I am, I asked about it. The response I got almost all the time was "don't know and don't want to know” and “don't want to remember it happened". Amazingly I knew more than half the locals.

Then take Japan. It has heavily censored its role in WW2, to the point where the average Japanese person has a very limited knowledge. They are most surprised to read of some of the death camp marches etc.

I wonder how many Russians are willing to discuss Stalin's purges or the Catholic Church to discuss the many genocidal atrocities committed in the name of their god.

There is a fine line between discussion and rubbing people's noses in it - but hiding it will do no one any favours as it squashes learning. If I was to make any critical comment of Chinese, especially those from the country areas – it’s that their education level is quite low. Things such as public health and sanitation are simply not understood. Hence it’s hard to be critical of someone pissing on the footpath if they don’t know it’s wrong.

The way the Chinese government controls public opinion and information is quite interesting and seemingly effective at turning it from a basket case 20 years ago into a superpower. It's already an economic superpower - and it will get more powerful.

It seems to me the masters of China have sacrificed the niceties of life such as sanitation and clean air in order to drag the country forwards. Now we can see some of those issues westerners pick on being addressed. Businesses are now being forced to clean up their acts, provide some health services, employ staff with disabilities (employ 2% or be fined) and provide better conditions.

To me China is an exciting place, it's developing all the time and you can see it and its fun to be a part of it. The West quite simply gives me the shits. The lawyers and social service do goodies have turned common sense into a disease. For example I once sacked a person for stealing and was forced to re employ him. Rewarding the bad is not sensible, and that just one example of the modern western malaise.

At the same time the West is to be applauded for looking after the underprivileged, the ill and the disabled. They say a civilisation is judged by how the less fortunate are cared for and there is some truth to that.

One day the East and West will find a common ground somewhere between where both "sides" are now at. It's coming to a world near you soon.

Did I miss anyone !!

"Did I miss anyone !!"

I'm sure SOMEONE'S feeling's have been hurt! ;)

I think I will put my soapbox away, it can only get me into trouble.