How the feelings of living in a strange city

Kelly@ You have posed some interesting questions, about which I could write volumes as answers; but I’ll try to keep it as brief as I can while still trying to cover everything. The answer to your first question about being born a different gender is ABSOLUTELY NOT!  I am very happy with whom I am, and I would not change a single thing. And that’s all I have to say about that. Your second question, however, provokes some significantly deeper thinking.  I guess that the answers to each of the points you raised in your second question depend largely on the level of maturity of those who would attempt to honestly answer. I would venture a guess that 99.99% of the foreigners in China are here because they made a conscious decision to come here.  In other words, they want to be here. For some of these people, their motivations for coming here may be a bit suspect, but the vast majority of them are here for sound and legitimate personal or business reasons. 

I guess that the easiest way for me to express my views on the subject is to include the following excerpt from a post I made on the www.eslcafe.com website almost five years ago.  Although this does not address all of the points you raised in your first question, I think that if one does a little “reading between the lines” most of the question will be answered.  Please remember that this post was intended for foreign ESL teachers.

  May 3, 2003
I am a long-term teacher at the XYZ English School in Zhuhai, China, and I am now in my 3rd year of teaching here. I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, consider myself to be an "old China hand". I learn something new every day, and that's part of the fun of living and working here.
Recently, I have been reading a large number of "horror" stories on this web site from other teachers who have, apparently, had very bad experiences here in China. I've noticed, however, that in most of these postings there is usually a statement that says: "I've been teaching In China for almost 4 months.", or something similar. I guess that 4 months, or 6 months makes you a real "old China hand", and has taught you everything there is to know about living and working in China.

Obviously, the authors of these postings did not do their "homework" before coming here. Please allow me to pass on a little bit of information that may help put things into perspective.

Please understand that when you make the decision to come to China, you are coming to a developing, communist country. You can be assured that life in China will not be as it is in San Francisco, Vancouver, London, or Sydney.  Because you are a foreigner, you are an enormous curiosity to the locals. People will stare at you on the street in a bus or in a restaurant. This is more prevalent in the smaller, provincial cities than in places like Beijing, Shanghai, or any of the larger modern cities where foreigners are not so uncommon.  Two years ago, I had the hilarious experience of watching a local man crash his bicycle into the back of a stopped taxi cab while he was staring over his shoulder at my wife and I. The best advice I can give you is to just get used to it. They mean no disrespect. It may be that you are the only foreigner that this individual has ever seen in person. Also, because you are a foreigner, most of the locals assume that you are rich, and have large amounts of money falling out of your ass. Beggars will single you out of a crowd and "swarm" you at a bus stop, and EVERYONE has something they want to sell you. Once you learn that the price of just about everything is negotiable, this becomes quite a bit less annoying, and can actually be quite a bit of fun.

In almost every negative posting on this site, the authors complain of chronic lying on the part of the school ownership and administration. They are correct. Lying, at all levels of this society, is common and constant. What the authors don't understand are the reasons why they are lied to so much. The absolute worst thing that can happen to any Chinese is to "lose face". A loss of face can happen in many different ways, but here are a couple that I have seen most frequently.

Very few of the Chinese staff in the schools posses a good working knowledge of conversational English. There are English department heads and English teachers in the public schools here with whom I cannot carry on a conversation past two sentences. To admit that they do not fully understand what you said during a conversation is considered to be disrespectful to you, and therefore, a big loss of face. You may ask them at the end of the conversation if they fully understood you, and they will politely smile and nod their head "yes". It is considered very impolite to say "no" to a teacher, no matter what the question was about.  In reality, they likely don't have a clue what the conversation was about, and three days later something blows up. I have lost count of the number of times this has happened to me. As a result, I've learned to do whatever it takes (including calling my wife to translate) to insure that the conversation was fully understood by all parties.

Another very common loss of face which people will lie to avoid is probably best exemplified by the recent cover-up by high government officials of the SARS outbreak on the mainland. Two officials (the mayor of Beijing and the Minister of Health) were fired from their posts (sacrificed on the altar of world opinion is probably more accurate than "fired") when the WHO found out what was really going on and made it public. These two ex-officials should consider themselves very lucky that they were only fired, and not been allowed to reach "room temperature" by now. It is still not clear to me if they were fired because they mishandled the SARS outbreak, or because they let the truth get out.

For an official or anyone in a position of authority to admit that there is something going on in their domain over which they do not have complete control is a HUGE loss of face. They will even go so far as to allow themselves to look like the former Iraqi Minister of Information in an effort to deny the obvious truth.

Please understand this; You, as a foreign teacher, ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THIS!!!!! The best you can do is to learn how to deal with it, and conduct yourself accordingly.

All schools in China are businesses. This includes "public" primary schools, secondary schools, and universities. Private language schools, such as mine, are driven by the tuition paid by the students or the students' parents. Public schools, on the other hand, receive their funding from the city or the province. They get a certain amount of money for each enrolled student.  The name of the game, therefore, is to enroll as many students as possible. It is common to have middle and primary school classes of 60+ students. The best way for public schools to attract many students is to have a high percentage of students pass the university entrance exams on the first try.  So, what do you think the main focus and objective of the education system in China is? BINGO!!! To pass the tests of course! If the students happen to actually learn a little bit along the way, that's ok, but the primary task is to get them past the tests. The schools only want to teach the students the "what", and have very little or no interest in teaching them the "why".

The "real" money in teaching English in China is in the children. Because of China's "one child" policy, and the public education system methods, PARENTS WILL DO, OR SPEND ANYTHING to give their only child a head start, or an advantage over the other public school students. The product that the schools have to offer is the foreign teacher. The "coin of the realm" in the English teaching business is the foreign, native English speaking teacher. Chinese parents simply do not want Chinese, or Chinese-looking teachers teaching English to their children. Parents of private school students will immediately pull their children out of the school, and demand their money back if they see a Chinese, or Chinese-looking teacher walk into the classroom. I have seen this happen many times.  That is a business reality in China. Race, sex, and age discrimination are the "norm" in China, and this is another of the things that you are not going to change.

So, if you think that by coming here to teach, you can "make a difference" (oh, please.. give me a break!), or, if you are some religious zealot who thinks that you can come here to preach the words of Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah to the "ignorant pagans" while you are teaching English, PLEASE STAY WHERE YOU ARE!! If you come here with that as your goal, you will be greatly disappointed and frustrated. Teaching English in China is a job and a business, nothing more, nothing less.

 What you just read (if you got through it all) is the way I viewed things five years ago.  I must say that, with very few and minor exceptions, I still feel the same way. It appears to me that you have a very inquisitive mind and a pleasant personality.  I hope that you enjoy your time here in Zhuhai

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You can get more with a kind word....and a gun....than you can with only a kind word!

Hi Orrin. No disrespect but I believe kelly is of Chinese descent and it just curious about how we foreigners like living in China. I have only been here for about 5 months so it's always great to receive good advise from you old hands who have experienced much more..... I think China is what you make of it. It can be truly amazing to some and totally horrific to others..........As for the gender question. Not sure of the relevance ot that question so I will take the 5th ammendment. I am man and would like to remain that way!!!

Kelly, I think Chinese people are very friendly to foreigners and are curious to learn more about us....... The cultures are totally different but for those who truly embrace learning all about the chinese traditions then it is quite amazing I think.

Unfortunately noone can give you the correct answer for your 1st question because I'm sure that each and every one of us have had different experiences, therefore each opinion will be different. Personally I enjoy China. I do have many family and friends that I miss back in Canada but thank god for computers and web cams.

Take good care!

N

Hi Kelly.

I have been here for only 6 months so I am not an "old hand" either, but here are my thoughts.

I find living in China to be a roller coaster ride.  Some days I really love it, other days everything makes me angry.  The food is great and cheap, but after eating Chinese food every meal for 2-3 weeks I get a real craving for Western food.  I was just asking my Chinese gf last night if she ever gets tired of eating rice.  Twice a day, every day! She was surprised I could ask such a question.

Culture shock? Every day.

We spent the CNY in Zhanjiang and one day we went out to a very nice park.  It was a beautiful place.......as long as you kept your eyes off of the ground.  There was trash everywhere! I asked my gf if the people came to see such a beatiful place why did they destroy it by throwing their trash on the ground?  She said it was because the people paid to get in so they felt they had the right and that someone from the park would clean up after them.  I'm talking 10 feet away from a trash can, people throwing empty soda cans and juice bottles onto the ground.  They had the right, she said!

I have begun to accept the constant staring.  In fact, having been to that park outside of Zhanjiang where there a few foreigners, Zhuhai seems to be no problem at all.  I felt like an animal in a zoo.  Everyone was staring, pointing, laughing.  It was awful.  My girlfriend tells me I should think of it as being famous, but to me I felt more like a freak.  Finally though,  one middle school girl came up to me and really wanted to talk.  What a breath of fresh air!

I can deal with the cutting the queue behavior now that I know how to tell people to get to the back of the line, but I am not sure I will ever be able to accept the way people drive.  It is so dangerous, not to mention self-centered and discourteous.  I work on this problem every day. Not because I want to, but because I am nearly run over or cut off crossing the street every day.

 I've met some really nice people.  I've met some not so nice people.  Same as anywhere else I have been.

Why did I come here, you might ask?  I was tired of the same old thing back home.  A bunch of things in my personal and professional life came together and presented me with the opportunity to do some different.  China seem like a good choice.  It hasn't disappointed!

In Zhanjiang, I saw a man on a motor scooter driving down the street.  He had a goose in the luggage carrier on the back.  It didn't fit so the goose's head was sticking out the back and that was all you could see.  I wish I had my camera.  What a site! That's what I came to China for.

Dave

I've been here six years and pretty much second what dd says.

"I've had good days and bad days and goin' half mad days..."

-James Delaney "Jimmy" Buffett

@ Kelly:
Here's a useful list of many of the aspects of Chinese culture that we foreigners often have difficulty understanding:
http://www.lostlaowai.com/life/culture/chinese-etiquette.html

@DD

It all comes full circle, my friend...

I'm fully aware that Kelly is Chinese, and I was delighted to read her post. That's why I responded to her. I don't think I said anything in my comment that she, or anyone else would find offensive.

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You can get more with a kind word....and a gun....than you can with only a kind word!

Baha'u'llah...

Wink wink nudge nudge. Hehe. ;)

 Sorry...in joke.

canrun@ 

hehe I was wondering how long it would take you to pick up on that. When u getting back in town? 

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You can get more with a kind word....and a gun....than you can with only a kind word!

Well as far as the food here, I like authentic cantonese food.  In America, what they call cantonese food is a joke or even chinese food is a joke compared to here.  Although I find myself missing chinese take-out from time to time.  Luckily, I haven't been deprived of much western food because (without trying to be too cocky) I am a great cook!  The hard part is finding all the ingrediants that I need and it turning out to be a wild goose chase.  Getting a good cut of steak in grocery stores.  I miss making a good pot roast because there isn't any red meat in Zhuhai!  A huge culture-shock moment is the fish and pork department.  Catching fish with nets, bouncing frogs in tanks was totally insane to witness. Not to mention the methods in how they cut the meat isn't the same as home, the bones are in different places and I can't find a simple fish filleted like I'm used to.   Also open-air chicken section isn't something that I'm used to either. 

Sometimes, though I'm a decent cook (laugh), I like dining out and the options of a good authentic western restaurant is slim.  Especially finding a western restaurant that doesn't put a local spin in their dishes.  I find myself starring at the menu and analysing "what do they really mean when they say tacos".  Or I see that the menu says "chicken salad" but is it THE chicken salad or isn't it.  To my disappointment it never really is as it should be, EVER.  I used to find it frustrating, but now I just go ahead and make it at home.  Brunch forget about it!  Not the same as in the States I have to say.

Movies, I enjoy getting the "boot-legs" options.  However, I miss going to the movies theatre and ordering popcorn or hotdogs.  Not so much in Zhuhai.  Pretty much if I want to enjoy these things I'll catch a ferry to Hong Kong. 

Is it hard to get things pertaining to food shopping and descent dining.  No.  Its just a pain in the a**.  However, the experience of living in China is something I'll never forget.

Folks, we really don't know how "good" we've got it in Zhuhai until we spend an extended period of time away (in China.) I've been stuck in a 'second-tier' city with my wife's family in Guangxi for Spring Festival for nearly ten days now and there are NONE of the amenities we have in Zhuhai. No Ryan's, Pete's, bar street, etc. Even more importantly (for some-including me) there are NO western products here like we have in Zhuhai at Jusco, the wet market, etc. No cheese, no chicken breasts, no ground beef...nothing. At all. It has really put things into perspective for me. I have to admire the hearty panda huggers who go all out and live "like the naives" whether in the Hutongs of Beijing or the outback of Xinjiang. This second-tier city has taught me a lot...namely that I'll be ready to be "home" this weekend! And ready for a double-pepperoni at Pete's!

(Only to leave it for good next month, hehe). ;)

It's out of my expectation that received many responses from you and thanks for all of you shared these interesting stories or experience here.

To orrin, I have read all the text  you wrote one by one and I have to admit that you understood Chinese very well even better than ourselfs, or we know what kind of problems we have, but no one have written it down by words. I agree with you something is a part of our blood which can't be changed by one's strength. but the bad things can't be changed or can't be changed in a short time which doesn't mean we want it exist in our life. we have seen how different China is  than before in this 20 years. and we can't ignore the influence from yours. since many foreigners came to China, told us how the world out of China looks like, then Chinese started to go oversea to make them dream become true. In certain way,you are the bridge connecting Chinese with the world.

For my understanding, surely, western and eastern has different value of life, for Chinese parents, most of them were born in an unlucky time, for some reason they can't make them dream become true. then they will transfer it to their children, then they will take any efforts to creat the condition for their child, including send them to expensive school, buy them  computer, give the money all they have,offer them the best food,wish one day their child can be a big person or can be rich . which is all the meaningful of their life.

But I don't know how the parents feeling should be if they heard the conversation like this:an english teaher said she never has any teach experience before she came to China. at that time, she can't find a job at that moment in her country, then a friend of hers asked her why she didn't go to China. she said , she knows nothing about teaching. her friend said, that is not important,what important thing is that you have a white face, can speak english ,that is all. finally, she came to China with a white face to be an english teacher because she knows how to talk in english.

Actually I felt very sad when I heard this conversation in a bar, I don't know whom should to blame on. but think of the poor parents and the innocent students, what they can get from the school ,the teacher like this with the high cost they paid.

A samll boat floating on the sea!

To ddblough, For Chinese ,we eat rice to grown up like you eat the bread to grown up, so, that is why your gf felt so surprise you asked the question like that. If someone would ask me to eat the bread or all the food made by flour all day, I would kill myself with no doubtly, hehe.

Another question  about why people threw the trash everywhere in the park or in public, I don't agree with your gf's says they threw trash because of they paid to get in then the had right to do that .

You know many people living in city,but a large sum of them came from countryside. I am one of them from countryside, in the past, our floor hasn't been paved with tiles. we just threw the trash on the ground, and we sweep the ground everyday in the morning. which is first homework the child should learn how to do. Since I left home to college, to the city for work, after many years,when I return home for Chinese New Year, I just kept the trash in my hand to not know where to throw. and try to look for a trash can, my Mom reminded me if I forgot we don't use trash can at home.

See, that is how life is living in countryside. and we all are influenced by our living environment. I can't say those people threw trash they all are from countryside, maybe some of them are local people, they are just too lazy to put the trash into the trash can. To be honest, we have a bad mind-set, someone else can do like this ,why not me? that is very bad to think in this way,I don't like it either.

Anyway, I believe there is one day, we don't have any pity to see what you have seen in the beautiful park. The day would come in one time!

Hope you enjoy the time you living in China!

A samll boat floating on the sea!

I think that some of the comments I made in my original reply might need a bit of clarification. The points I raised about Chinese society in general, and the way business is done here specifically, are not necessarily problems, but they are certainly different from what many “laowai” are used to or might be expecting. Most of us who have been here for more than one year or so, myself included, are still here because, after having made the required adjustments, we like it here. If we didn’t like it here we would have moved on after any contractual obligations we may have had were completed, or perhaps even before then.

Indeed, there are some aspects of life here, especially some of the behavior of the locals which I and others find, to this day, a bit distressing and/or distasteful. I won’t go into anymore detail about them because we all know what they are. Having said that, I must add that there are an equal number of aspects of life and behaviors of societies and individuals in our own “home” countries that I/we find equally distressing and distasteful.

I sincerely believe that, if a newcomer (and we were all newcomers at one point) makes the effort to understand WHY some people behave the way they do, and WHY the society is structured the way it is (as Kelly so eloquently described in her replies to our comments), then these things become a bit easier for us to deal with.

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You can get more with a kind word....and a gun....than you can with only a kind word!

I dont think you ever become trully assimilated in a new country. I know foreigners who ahve been here for 18 years and they still go through the same problems (even the ones that are fluent in Chinese languages). Just a simple thing like understanding just how important Spring Festival is. I have seen three now and only now does my girlfriend tell me she doesnt have a Spring festival and cant because her parents are divorced and she has a half sister and there is no way they can all be together (without WW3 starting). This year it has affected her worse and I dont know why -could it be the Rat influence -i dont know. we have her father here with us so she does have some familly and a close school friend (she is from Inner Mongolia by the way) so we did have some of the ritual but as a foreigner there are likely things I should have done but still dont know that I am to do them. I ask my friends (Chinese) and they cant se any but I have a feeling she has a problem with me over this.
Still its been too cold to do much this year.

hi kelly
i love zhuhai; havent had any seriously unpleasant experiences except once a beggar tried to throw a stone at our car because our driver had yelled at him, and once a drunk driver almost crashed into us and yelled a chinese abuse.
coming from a crowded metropolis, for me zhuhai is great, tho now changing for the worse with all the construction. have found people very friendly, rather helpful, sometimes they laugh at you which can get annoying, but i can understand it.
i love the food and miss it a lot back home.
have met some really nice warm people who deeply love their country and are concerned about social issues; and have had great conversations with chinese of all ages and backgrounds.
loved beijing, xian, nanjing and guangzhou too. shanghai didnt seem such a warm place.
havent been to the heart of china-the countryside, unfortunately.
like my own country india, it will take decades beore i can say i know china.

Hi Kelly,

I have just read this post for the first time. I hope you are still around to read another reply.

Let me answer the second one first. I am very happy to be a man in China. It's seems to be very much a man's world in China, much more so than the west where the quest for equality has in some places gone stark raving mad. I grew up in a world where the man was boss, and I like it that way - but I also love the way Chinese women can be successful in China. Hard work is rewarded, which is a fairer system.

To answer your second question is not so easy. Let me say I love living in Zhuhai. For me it is the land of opportunity and also the home of my girlfriend. I can live like a king, or save heaps of money. The transport is great and the food excellent (once you develop a resistance to the "new" bugs on offer). Culture shock .... absolutely. Lonely .... absolutely.

My first visit 4 years ago I knew not one word of Mandarin and I was terrified to utter anything. My second visit was barely any better. The real problem for a westerner is that we can not read, listen or speak anything without a lot of lessons. If I were to go to Germany I can at least read it and the sounds are not so strange, and learning is (comparatively) quick and easy.

For the first 3 years I travelled to areas of China alone (apart from a friend who would accomany me to my hotel / place of work and then leave). But at all times I tried to embrace the Chinese way. My marriage fell apart, work moved me to Zhuhai near permanently and I fell in love with a local girl. So now I am "home" in Zhuhai and happy to be here with her.

I still find it hard to understand why Chinese do many of the things they do, such as the constant lying and throwing rubbish on the ground ... and I certainly don't understand the psychology of the Chinese workers I supervise and train. Some are great - most are just adequate and some are are just terrible. It's about the same ratio as in the west, but at least I have some idea of what makes the western workers tick.

Every day is new and different and much more exciting than being at "home", but home is home. I have to ask myself now .... where is that. But that's a story for another day.

"Hard work is rewarded, which is a fairer system."

Roy, I have to (somewhat) disagree with this statement in relation to China. I DO fully agree that if Chinese are in a position to make money for THEMSELVES, then yes--hard work is most often rewarded. When making money for themselves, the Chinese work ethic puts most others' to shame.

And the farmers? I have no idea how they do it. Are they "rewarded?" Not in the least, I'm afraid.

(I'm gonna slightly shift the topic here...)

Now...

Have you noticed the post office? Bank of China? China Telecom? The girl sleeping in the "xiao mai bu" or one of the zillions of crappy clothing stores that sell the fur and glittery Chinglish clothing? Or the hundreds of ADULT students at my former school who took a TWO-HOUR nap on COTS every day? Or the "government officials" who have BEDS in their office (for who knows what reason?) ;)

Not exactly a paragon of hard work.

In the end, I've been left with a sense of bewilderment about the "hard work" of the Chinese. Yes, when working for themselves then I have seen them work hours that would put many others to shame. And they are often rewarded (IF they have the guanxi to go along with the effort...)

When working for the government or some "lao ban" then I have to say that the sloth seems more productive. Just my two cents' worth...

Don't get me onto my favourite subject ..... I can't agree more on much of what you said. The productivity and worth of the average Chinese worker is similar to the exchange rate ..... and there is little incentive for them to do better. What more could we expect. We don't need to be judgemental, the exchange rate does that for us.

Having said that however .... those that put in the extra effort are often rewarded, as they are in many jobs. The number of women running businesses in China is quite high, and I enjoy dealing with them as they seem more reliable.

I can always remember seeing a lady dressed in a white 3 piece suit collecting and sorting the rubbish. I have actually seen her quite a few times, and always well dressed. Nor is she the only well dressed rubbish collector. I call that taking some pride in your appearance and work. One would never see that in the west.

Last time I looked Kelly I was a guy.

But due to the extreme inhalation of the toxic pollution being emitted from all the Dongguan factories that could change in a blink of an eye.

可怕的不是进步速度慢，而是止步不前
Be not afraid of growing slowly, be afraid only of standing still

"Last time I looked Kelly I was a guy."

Ehhhh....oops.

Note to self: always check the user profiles.

Update: is there more than one Kelly?

Not to you: Read the post carefully!

Last time I looked Kelly, I was a guy.

Always quick to jump the gun Canrun!

Maybe one day you wont hide behind that mask of yours!!

可怕的不是进步速度慢，而是止步不前
Be not afraid of growing slowly, be afraid only of standing still

我一点也不懂

I guess my mask must be on too tight.

看下你写给别人的东西

I don't need to hide behind a mask to prove a point !

可怕的不是进步速度慢，而是止步不前
Be not afraid of growing slowly, be afraid only of standing still

Um...if that's a Rockwell self-portrait then maybe the mask isn't such a bad idea, Kingsta...

Seriously, I still don't understand why you said Kelly is a guy.

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kingstadlux ,Canrun you guys are funny!
To Canrun, did kingstadlux said "kelly is a guy"?
fou my understanding, he didn't say "Kelly is a guy"
I guess he just answered my question he was a guy,since came back from DongGuang,maybe he is not sure if he still is a guy, probably turned to a girl! kingstadlux, don't throw stone to me! hehe!
A small boat floating on the sea!

Kinga not a guy??? that's just too funny to contemplate!

regards,
T. Tempest. DCA

____________________

"I'd love a thousand words in a foreign language." Tang Yuchuan

Tsc Tempest Photography at http://www.kong-xi.com/doc.html

HOLY CRAP!!!! Lay off the juice, Canrun. Lay off the juice.

Sorry, Kingsta. I swear I only NOW caught that.

我这个笨蛋!

No Worryz m8, alls well that ends well, now where is that bottle of baijiu?

可怕的不是进步速度慢，而是止步不前
Be not afraid of growing slowly, be afraid only of standing still